On BDSM and Race Pt 2, Featuring The Artist Formerly known as Niko Flux

This is part two of a conversation I had in 2019 with the artist formerly known as Niko Flux, who now goes by Cleo Ouyang. When Niko was obliterated, this half of our conversation was confined to the archives for years, until now. I have been thinking a lot about this conversation recently as I continue work with Red Canary Song and am building community with other Asian sex workers across the globe, and Cleo and I decided it should be brought back to the public. Be sure to read part 1, which examines how we as Asian dommes handle racial fetishism (or at least how we did back then).

EW: Are you out to your parents?

MN: uh no… (both laughing) You have a beautiful coming out story though

EW: I do, yes. I do have a really wonderful coming out story. And that relationship is very interesting. My relationship with my parents I believe is very interesting

MN: tell me

EW: Because I believe that my relationship with my parents used to be categorized for me as really abusive. Like in my mind, my mom was the enabler and my dad was the abuser, and that was (jokingly) the two genders. Well that was the dynamic that they possessed for me. And then last year, almost a year ago actually, i called my mom and told her I was a domme.

I actually didn’t tell her that. I asked her if she knew what a dominatrix was and when she said no, I told her that I torture and humiliate men for money. She asked me if I have sex and if i am safe, and I said no and yes, respectively. And she said ok, and I said great, because I’m going to need help on my taxes.

And then in July I came out to my dad. I called him and said “hey, I have a question. Do you know what I’ve been doing to make money since I graduated?” and he said no. And I said, “well I haven’t been working in a restaurant like you thought I have. Do you know what a dominatrix is” And he said yes

MN: Oh he did?

EW: He did, yes. And I said, “ok well that’s what I do. That’s what I’ve been doing to make money. And also I love my job” And he laughed and said “well are you any good at it?”

MN: And you said “fuck yea dad i’m fucking awesome”

EW: I said “yea I kind of am.” and then we continued to have our conversation, which went somewhere along the lines of “whatever happens to you, you have a good head on your shoulders. You know what’s right for you and you will always have a home with us.” which I think is the most beautiful outcome.

And I’ve had multiple conversations with them since then where I can sense them experiencing anxiety about my job, which is fair. I think that in a way, a lot of it are concerns about “what are other people going to think about us,” filial piety and familial shame and familial honor; those are motifs that arise a lot.

MN: But it wasn’t in the first conversation, which is amazing to me

EW: It wasn’t present in the first conversation, which is very transformative. And I believe that as those anxieties arise, I understand “yes, i did tell you something that is kind of difficult to stomach, and I will hold you through all the spaces as we talk about what it is that’s bothering you.”

MN: That’s amazing

EW: Yes. So that’s been a really interesting new dynamic in our relationship, is me getting the space to be honest with them about things. And I think after I put that aside, I started allowing myself to swallow my ego around my parents a lot more often. And I really got to see the benefits of having integrity with them, restoring my integrity with them, and restoring their perception of me, which was transformative. And I know that I am really lucky that my parents have allowed me to do that. But I do recommend it. 

MN: (laughs) I’ve been...It’s been a big big weight. It’s funny that you say you recommend it, because...My father, we haven’t spoken in a little bit. If I were ever to have that conversation, which I guess I will one day, that would be farther down the line. 

But my mother and I are very close, very very close. And even more amazingly, my mother’s daughter is Mistress Niko. My father’s daughter is my non-work persona. My mother’s daughter is Mistress Niko.

My mother....would have been so good at this. She used to tell me when I was in college to have more than one boyfriend at once. She would say, “I used to have 5 at the same time. That way you know that if one doesn’t give you what you want you can go to the other one.” She is such a dominant queen. She is very materialistic--I don’t say that in a bad way. I say that in a factual way; she channels money. And Mistress Niko is the side of me that channels money.

So that’s been really hard for me. Building Mistress Niko has allowed me to connect with my mother in ways that my old self could never.

EW: wow. ”Building Mistress Niko has allowed me to connect with my mother.” That’s incredible.

MN: yea. It is. 

EW: but that is such a brilliant point though, There is something about really appreciating where you come from once you harness and accept and claim responsibility for how great you are. Do you know what I mean?

I mean for you, in building a work/domme identity, you are really able to appreciate and connect with the woman who raised you.

MN: but the problem is that there’s this block, because I haven’t told her. And I’m constantly lying to her.

EW: Does she live in New York?

MN: She does...motherfucker…So there’s this huge psychological and spiritual and emotional block 

EW; inconsistency

MN: yea. My life and my mind. And i need to find a way to liberate it. And i’ve been working on how

EW: Well the way to liberate it would be to tell your mom

MN: yes…(sarcastically) thank  you

(both laughing)

EW: Ultimately, this is a dilemma/dichotomy of us saying “oh yea, externally, when I’m dealing with clients, I have to deal with x,” but also this is a conversation about you and me discovering what our racial identity means within a changing and evolving context to our sexualities and to our work. And both you and I are kind of multicultural in the way that we are of one culture but grew up in another. 

I guess: honoring tradition and then also giving that tradition the space to love you as someone continuing and being the pioneer of what that tradition can look like in the future 

MN: The cool, weird, difficult thing IS this dichotomy of fantasy and reality. Because you could theoretically lie to your parents--

EW: Yea, for the rest of your life if you needed to

MN: --for the rest of your life, and keep them in a fantasy about this reality. Or on the other hand, you can find a way to merge fantasy and reality--to sublimate them. So hard to decide how to write those storylines

EW: and to discern exactly what those storylines are going to be. I really like the way--what you’re pointing out about fantasy and reality is really--goddamn. [The question becomes] What is the intention? When you say it’s hard to discern what these storylines are, that’s so poignant because what am I using as the vehicle and what am I setting as the intention? Am I setting fantasy as the vehicle and reality as the intention, or am I setting reality as the vehicle and fantasy as the intention? 

MN: Ok. The intention and the vehicle. So you use the fantasy to reach reality. Or you use the reality to reach the fantasy

EW: Exactly 

Cleo and Wu, doing very serious Business (tm).