On Latex and Material Fetishism, with EPB

I recently got the opportunity to chat with EPB, a fellow rubber fetishist and artist whose work I really admire. In her studio, we began discussing our mutual interest in latex, and what that fetishism reveals about sexual, romantic, interpersonal, and cultural values. Read on below to see what we discovered:

EPB: Okay, so today is Tuesday, February 16th, and we are here at Studio EPB having a conversation about latex. My name is EPB and I have my guest here.

Wu: Hi, I am Empress Wu.

EPB: So why do you wear latex?

Wu: Well, the way that it looks on a body--it is like the ultimate container. Right? It is like wearing a piece of clothing that will airbrush you while you were wearing it, like wearing a platonic ideal of what a body is supposed to look like. And it is sexy when it holds you tight, defines where you are allowed to move and not move. It is in itself like a form of bondage but it can also be incredibly liberating in other ways. I also have a lot of alien fantasies and a lot of techno-sexual fantasies as a result having to be Constantly Online. I feel like latex is the kind of material that allows me to closely embody that, the sort of futuristic form that has the potential of being genderless and identity-less. I think that leather operates in many of the same ways. But there is a lot of venn diagramming between latex and leather.

EPB: Well, leather is an animal fiber for intents and purposes. And latex is a plant fiber, even though, perhaps not all the latex that exist in the world is made from the rubber tree but if we are talking about the origin of the fiber, latex is a plant fiber. 

Wu: Yeah. I feel like I always forget about the fact that latex comes from plants.

EPB, a vision in rubber. Photo by Alisha Wetherill

EPB: It comes from a plant. I know it is an easy thing to forget. Even now that I am studying the history of textile and we talked about why did wool become important in the 18th-century as a value of connecting to nature through the animal and what animal meant. All of this backstory that gets smushed into the meaning that we do not think about and I think is important. 

Wu: Yeah. So that is something that I feel is missing from me, in terms of my understanding of latex because I feel like leather does have a very intense sub-cultural history that is easily traceable and easily trackable. But latex, I am like "Why did we start doing that?", "Why did we just start deciding to put our bodies inside sheets of rubber?" 

EPB: It is very new. the history of wearing latex for sexual gratification is something that happened at the end of the 20th-century. Before that, in terms of documents, it was not worn for that purpose alone. And before that, it did not even exist, so it is pretty fresh.

Wu: That is true. It is almost, now that you mentioned it, leather has been around literally since the dawn of time because people have been fucking wearing animal skins since the dawn of time. But latex is such a modernist material. The association of latex with hygiene is super crucial. It is another reason why, especially during the pandemic, it has come up a lot. 

EPB: The best coronavirus fetish because you can do a session without any bodily contact.  There is a history of that too when latex became so popular in the '80s, the apex of the AIDS crisis. That was the moment when suddenly latex is in clubs, latex is more than just in these corners. 

Wu: Yeah. More than for the functional use of a condom. I was just thinking about, as we were talking, again latex as a modernist material and kind of how it represents futuristic ideology? To go off again on a tangent, I was thinking of the idea of modernist movement towards this progress, towards this promise of convenience and the scientific revolution and then ultimately, crumbling. But around that time, things like plastic came into being, things like acrylic, things like plastic was like proposed magic material that you can put all over your house, you could wipe it down and it would be clean, and painless and simple. And everything would be so spotless and look so new all the time. Things will never get old. And now, plastic, you look at it you will get it, you go to grandma's house and her couch is covered in plastic, and it is yellowed, gross, and it is ugly. 

Wu: And it is funny to think about that and to think about, "Oh, that was the promise of that material." and where and how it kind of intersects with latex. Just another material that looks so smooth and shiny and easily cleanable but also disintegrates so fucking easily. 

EPB: Yeah, that has a life span.

Empress Wu, captured by @photopupnyc

Wu: It does. And I think that is another thing is that it's the representative of the agreement that you have to have when you are playing with somebody in latex. It is like, "Oh okay, if you and I are going to be playing, you cannot use sharps on me, or like the places where I am wearing this material. You cannot use metal on me in any specific way. You cannot use oil because if you do then it is going to disintegrate this fabric or we could have a mutual agreement to tear this thing up. Right? or to destroy it together." I was actually talking to a partner, I showed him a video or I showed a partner of mine images of me wearing a latex bodysuit. He was like, "Wow! That looks really really good. I think that I would have ripped that off of you.". And I was like, "Yeah but we should get some really cheap rubber to do that. Do you know what I mean?"

Wu: So there is like multiple-use function, like we are going to have the nice stuff, the china latex that we keep for the guests. 

EPB: Yes! I love it. It is so cool! 

Wu: I have like my DeMask, my Polymorph latex that I wear for shoots, sometimes just to be seen in. And then I have, like, the 'fuck rubber'. [laughs]

EPB: But of course, I think about that with a lot of fetish attire, there is the clothing that is preserved exclusively for photoshoots. And then, when I think about, when I was in the heyday of working, like doing multiple sessions a day and all that, I had one outfit and I just wore that one outfit every day. One pair of shoes and it became totemic and I was like "This is my uniform. This is the thing that I wear where I am in the weeds, on the ground.". But of course, when I want to have a calling card for advertising, when I am going to a party, then it is a different kind of presentation.

Wu: 1-800-rent-the-runway.

EPB: Yeah! Even though it is the same material it means different things. And I think that is very interesting. My question at that is how does that feed into, this could be like for better or for worse, how does it feed into the presentation of the fantasy? And then how that fantasy, later, is either eroded or affirmed in the session? Do you know what I mean?

Wu: There is a specific uniform for visually representing the fantasy and a different uniform for physically representing the fantasy.

EPB: And to me, that really speaks to the whole premise. So much of the new ones is like "Ha! Does this person actually want to do the thing that they are talking about? Or they just want to talk about it? Do I narrate this to them in a way that feels real? Or do we reenact in a way that is closer to the act? Or do we never touch it with the 10-ft pole" Because that transgression will never actually take place.

“The fantasy is asymptotic. You can always approach it, but if you ever actually try to touch it or penetrate it in any way, it gets completely obliterated.”

Wu: Yeah. Like that, within itself, that is asymptotic. The fantasy is asymptotic. You can always approach it, but if you ever actually try to touch it or penetrate it in any way, it gets completely obliterated.

EPB: Right. And that kind of nuance, I think is something that is so mysterious and hard to know and it is so paradoxical. I made that mistake a lot early on. And there is this kind of code for knowing it makes me think, how close we get to reenact without actually hitting the nail on the head of too real. 

Wu: Yeah! 

EPB: And how different people, different players, different providers, edge with that. 

I had a super interesting encounter recently, around latex. So this was in pandemic a couple months back, I went to the grocery store. Well, first I see this dog, this very cute dog. Then I go up to the dog and do my like dog voice, which is not like any normal human voice. [laughs] It is a lot of like cooing. Then I see this guy and he is talking with the mask on. I am wearing a hoodie, a leather jacket, hiking boots, sweats, like, I am totally like, bound and have the mask, everything, he cannot see anything. But we have like a little moment and he is like, "Oh, I live in the neighborhood. I will give you my number. Let us hang out." I was like, "All right, Sure. Why not?" I thought it was sexy to not know what this person looks like? I mean, kind of psychically connect.

EPB: So we meet up the next day, we meet up for a drink, and he is like, dressed again, like a hoodie, a hat, everything like that. I like leaned over to touch him and he has a harness underneath his sweater. I was like, "What is this? Like, are you kinky?" He is like, "Yes, I am kinky." I was like, "Oh, my God. This is amazing." It is like we met in the wild, a chance encounter, it felt so cosmic and so satisfying like really excited. Then we end up texting a little bit and I was like, "What are you into? Like, what is your jam? Like now, we can bypass all the awkwardness, kind of coming out or introduction. He is like, "I am really into latex. I am really, really into latex." I was like, "Okay, great. It sounds awesome." I was thinking about this project.

EPB: Anyway, long story short, we hook up after strenuous COVID tests, [laughs] for the record, disclaimer, many COVID tests were taken. No one was exposed. Anyway, we end up hooking up and the whole thing goes sideways. The reason it goes sideways is because he wanted to use a substance, I do not use substances, we were not on the same level. So we just did not sort of match in our kink or I do not know, whatever, it just did not work out. But during the course of that play, I was wearing latex, and he was like, really into the latex. At one point, I wanted to take the latex off and he was like, "No, I do not want you to take off the latex." I was like, "Oh, you are not here for me?"

Wu: You are here for a part to fill this thing.

EPB: Yes. Exactly! That skin. Like not even the body but like the skin, the membrane. I got very, I do not use this word often. But like, triggered because to me, it took me back to the space of being a provider.

For him, like, there is nothing to do with that, I do not think he registered it as that. But I did start to think about the ways in which the fantasy can either be an inroad. Or, a boundary.

Wu: Fucking always. I feel like it always has to do with how attached that person is to that fantasy? Or how attached/repulsed each party is to that fantasy. But yes, I am sorry that you had that experience. I could totally see how if you are like, "Oh, well, if I am just here to like animate this piece of clothing, you should be fucking pay me for this."

EPB: Right. Which is the dialogue I was having on the inside. I was also like, "I am not even getting paid. Fuck you. Get out of here." Like literally, get out of here. He was like, "What is wrong with you?" I was like, "I am sorry. I’ve got to get up early." Like it is late, it is no hard feelings. I think that it is one of those situations. What it showed to me was I also had a fantasy. I was like, "Oh, my God, like, this thing that we have in common is going to mean the same thing to both of us." But it actually meant such different things and how heartbreaking it was. Then the pants broke. So I was like, "All right. This is perfect.” It was like the material, the crotch covering broke, the thing broke that represented this disconnect between, you know? 

WU This is how it goes with fantasies, right? You have a fantasy and then usually, like somebody will come in and fill that container. Latex, I feel like, is a perfect example of that. Like, here is this loose skin that has no structure until there is somebody who is willing to be bound by it.

“‘Here is this loose skin that has no structure until there is someone who is willing to be bound by it.’
’For me, coming back to latex is a way to remind.’”

EPB: Yes. It kind of puts it all out on the table. It is sort of I think a lot about ineffability. The construction of words and how words can both reveal but also contain and bind the contracts, all this stuff that we are surrounded by. Latex is like its own language without having to articulate those words, necessarily. 

For me, coming back to latex is a way to remind. I mean, I am sitting here and thinking like, I am wearing these pants right now and I will never, for a minute, forget that I am wearing these pants. They remind me because of their constriction that I am wearing them. It is like me reigning myself in. It is like containing me and I need that physical reminder to be contained in spaces where I might otherwise forget. That is why it is an important material for me.

EPB: Do you feel that latex is a uniform for you?

Wu: Yes. or at least if not a uniform, I think that both latex and uniforms contain. And that they both physically contain my body and they also contain elements of "This is an entire world that we are stepping into your right now.". And the moment that you are answering that door wearing it, suddenly "Oh we have been transported into another dimension." I think that is a uniform and it can also be none of that. Right? It can be a complete sensory experience.

EPB: I want to go back to something you said earlier in the conversation about the kind of way in which latex lets you access a non-human part of yourself, an alien part of yourself, like a machine, I do not know. So when you are working, do you find that it is important for you to separate yourself from your human part?

Wu: It feels less like that. And it feels less like I am separating myself from my human part and it feels more like I am tapping into a human part. But it is like I am the vector through which that happens. I am not like the human itself. Right? It is like I am tapping into something collective. I think. And it is really easy for me to think about. I guess both of us have thought about this multiple times, the context of performance, right? And being seen and being in session is being a performance. But I like thinking about myself as in terms of machine-like qualities and being like, "Oh. I am the mechanism through which XY and Z gets to unfold." or in the opposite direction, it is like, "I have the vision." And the other entity, my session partner, my same partner, is an extension of my arm or they are like a bionic cock, or like there is another set of robotic hand through which mutual visions comes to life. 

Wu: And so, maybe that is like an apt description where it is less that I am not tapping in humanness but only through these machine-entities that we both embody can we achieve humanness. Which is a just collective unity and a sensation that there is this universal thing that exists that is so much bigger than you. And that all you are is just something for that universal thing to pass through.

EPB: I wanted to touch on that topic that I have mentioned earlier about this sort of dichotomy between the perspective on a relationship of provider and client, and it is interesting I am thinking of this question now, how does this relate to latex? One thing I learned in having this conversation is that wearing latex is what I am calling a situated practice so it is context-specific. Even when we just talked about the capital N, Nice latex, the china latex, versus what do you call it down the trenches? the 'fuck rubber'. Exactly. It is like two pieces that might look identical but depending on the context have different functions.

Wu: Yeah. Two pieces that are constituted of the same material.

“I am thinking about latex as a sort of metaphor for what happens in that space, I start thinking about how that one scene means different things for different people that are in there.”

EPB: Exactly. Constituted of the same material have different functions and each person designates each one according to their unique needs and cosmology or whatever their practice is that they are using it for. So, now I am thinking of these different spaces that are similarly constituted of the same material, and let us call that 'scene' or "session'. The same material in the way of point of entry. Activity that happens inside, participants, exit, right? However, they mean different things to different people even though those people are making an agreement with each other in that same space. When I am thinking about latex as a sort of metaphor for what happens in that space, I start thinking about how that one scene means different things for different people that are in there.

Wu: I am thinking a lot about what we were talking about earlier, in terms of the real and the unreal, and how we were talking about realness being something that a lot of people will see is, "Oh, this is a real interaction. This is not a real interaction." But I feel like when you become a worker you become so up close and personal with the idea of, "Oh, this is not mutually exclusive." Like, this is so much more of a spectrum that we have constructed.

Wu: Latex being kind of like proof of that, right? An extension of that. In a conversation that I was having with one of my friends, Sybil Fury, she talked, we were talking about cyber sexuality and technosexuality. She talked about doing sessions in which she analyzed how she was a part of a larger technological assemblage, as opposed to it being us who wields the technology, us deciding how it moves and goes, us using technology as a tool, and shifting from that paradigm to technology is an extension of us is an extension of technology. I feel things like latex, other rubber things like cocks are great examples of that of--we are actually like really woven into this larger fabric of real and unreal as they existed, on like two ends of the spectrum.

EPB: the conversation about like, what is real and what is unreal? That divide bothers me less because, look, we are in agreement that like performance is a thing and there are different spaces to perform in and different functions for that. I am not trying to designate what is authentic or not. I do not like that conversation. What bothers me in that divide is the kind of hierarchy that is created.

Wu: I think so. Yes.

EPB: Like an assumption that---well, the authentic is like the good stuff. Then the synthetic is bad.

Wu: Yes. The real is good, but like the unreal is like, I do not want that. Or somehow, like worse. That is true. That is really, really true. Yes, just like a total authenticity fetish.

EPB: Right. I mean, I think that when I have had that experience in sessions because I have broken so many golden rules. I mean, I am totally guilty, which is probably why we are still talking about this. It feels like that transgression in and of itself is erotically charged. I mean, what you were saying earlier like “we are going to agree to rip this shit up” I am like, "I do not know if this might rip?" I am like, "How close can I get to it ripping without it ripping?" Then one day, it is going to rip. So there is risk involved. So I actually kind of empathize with that perspective of someone who is always looking for that "real moment”—looking for the rip.

“‘How close can I get to it ripping without it ripping?’ One day, it is going to rip. So there is risk involved. So I actually kind of empathize with that perspective of someone who is always looking for that ‘real moment’—looking for the rip.”

Wu: it makes me think about latex is like a metaphor for temporality, right? Like as opposed to leather, which is something that has occurred literally throughout all of the time. Latex is kind of like this thing that will eventually disintegrate. Whether that is like poor storage, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like literally, so many different ways that it can fall apart. So there is kind of an inherent disposability and futility to it. So there is a wanting of, well, this is not a piece that I am going to be able to pass down through generations. So I might as well have my fucking fun in it. 

EPB: There is a decadence to it.

Wu: There is a decadence to it. Both in the way of this is very luxurious. Then also, this is related to decay.

EPB: It is evident in the material itself.

EPB is a writer, visual artist, performer & researcher who plays in the space between theory and practice. In her writing, she parallels her observations of the art world with academic discourse and the politics of sex work. She is the Head Mistress of Liminal Praxis, an online space which contains archival material from performances beginning in 2001 and running through 2021. These performances touch on themes between esoteric & erotic, head spaces & somatic impressions, lived experience & multiple theoretical frameworks.

To read my past conversation with Verity Lightman, another contributor of Liminal Praxis, click here.